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The Horned God in My Own Image!

topic posted Sun, February 5, 2006 - 8:10 AM by  MacMorrighan
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Well, here's how-- generally-- I envision my Horned Lord. How doi you guys see Him, physically? Now, I know that the Gardnerian Horned God is the Stag-God, but...I wonder how they strictly envision Him (pressuming they do). And, Asterion (who's likeness adorns much Minoian currency; whom Rhea loved so much she forbid Him the love of any woman, whereby Poseidon-- the Earth-Shaker-- is said to have succumned to His lusts...this may mirror the role between the Minos [the Minoan H.P.] and his "Server" [the working partner and fellow H.P. of the Minos]) of the Minoan Brotherhood too, for example. Anyhoo...here's how I "see" Him:

* He'd be ripped, and buff! Hey, I'm Gay, and have certain proclivities regarding the male form, akin to that of Classical Greece. Take a look at str8 adult porn stud Colt Steel for more detail concerning the God from the neck down, generally-speaking. I also see Him with the sexiest back-side imaginable! I knew a guy back in college [a baseball Jock that rode his bike EVERYWHERE] with rump like that, which actually took my breath away!!!
* There should also be something-- to be determined later, when the sacred inspiration [or imbis forosnai] comes upon me-- relating Him, also, as the Dread Lord of Death, as appears to be the origional concept in Traditional Wica [note the singular "C"].
* He'd have a set of Stag antlers, each of seven tines [or points] to represent the King Stag.
* I envision Him with a goatee, rather than the "traditional beard". First, because they're quite fetching on most men. And, secondly, it is commonly believed that earlier cultures could not have had groomed facial hair! However, this has proven to be a false assumption. The Celts, for instance, were a deeply festidious band of tribes! The archaeological record attests to the fact that they took great pride in their appearance, having had combes and mirrors, and other such personal grooming devices. This, more than likely, extended to men's facial hair, as well, rather than the "wild," tattered, massive beards we so often envision due to popular culture [and indeed, this idea is far too often promulgated amongst modern Paganism]. Hey, the beard may have been rebeliously "stylish" back during the 60s, but no longer... Ditto with with the long ex-hippie hair-do!
* He'd proudly display various personally designed tribal tattoos across His torso, and body; perhaps spirals of rebirth [i.e., His dying/rising Aspect]. Perhaps gleaned via meditation and skrying... And, maybe, wreathed around each bicep could be witnessed-- such as the tribal/barbed wire motif so popular today-- a tattoo of intertwining holly and oak.
* Some very "shamanic" accoutrements would adorn His Holy visage, such as a necklace, ear rings [nipple rings? Prince Albert piercing? ], an anklet, perhaps a torque, or other jewelry, as well as a staff or stang, etc.
* No "goatfoot" God for me, thank you! Cloven hooves would recall Pan, rather than the Horned God of the Celtic-type, I believe.
* I am certainly no prude, nor are any of the Traditional Witches from Gardner's renaisance. However, modern Pagans seem very close minded, sexually, and where the human body is concerned. My image of the Horned God would definately, like most Horned Gods, be ithyphallic [even Patricia Crowther, Gardnerian HPs, called Him such in one of Her chants, when she sang, "Ithym phallus Thou do bear!"], and proportionately-so. But, an uncircumcised phallus, at that! Now, I cannot speak for all modern Pagans, but I should think that they should be opposed to this so-called "common" proceedure [i.e., circumsision]. Also, It will have to be a LARGE and erect phallis, but nothing cartoonishly-huge!
* I should rather He at least be cast in the "Bone finish" as my beloved Morrighan statue, for no other reason than to asthetically compliment Her upon Their Holy altar.

Hmmm...can anyone else think of any other ideas worth "adding" to Him? I was also considering rummaging for some photos of men to get His physical form "just right". You know, take these pics. to Artisan X and say, "Now, I want Him to have his arms, oh, and this guy's rump, and this blokes jaw and cheek bones, oh, and his pecs!", etc. Heh heh heh...

Take Care,
Wade MacMorrighan
posted by:
MacMorrighan
Iowa
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  • Have you seen "The Horned One" card of "The Witches Tarot" by Ellen Cannon Reed? This card replaces "The Devil" in most other cards. This depiction is close to my experience. When I was seven, I started through a time of abuse that lasted five years. During that time, Morrighan and Cernunnos came to watch over me, along with a couple of other creatures, while i slept.

    Even at the age of seven, I knew where my sexual attractions lay and I remember Him very clearly, as He appeared to me.

    * He had stag horns, seven tines on each side, if I remember right.
    * Dark hair, fairly long, (just below shoulder length) but not unkempt, wavy, with a beard, but closely cropped, not long or overly bushy
    * Strong build, moderately hairy chest, flat stomach, lower half covered with thick fur.
    * I don't recall Him having cloven feet. Seems like if He did, that would have stuck with me, but I can't say for sure. (But my attentions were elsewhere...ahem.)
    * He wore a torque around his neck - something I find very sexy to this day, when I see depictions of them.
    * He was also nicely hung and...viril.. Uncircumcised. The only one I've seen in person to this day.

    I remember being very attracted to him on many levels, including sexually. He was the first to tell me it was natural to be who and what I was, and that attraction is natural and should be celebrated. This gives you an idea of how I see Him physically. I am always looking for depictions of Him, but haven't found the right one yet. I like your idea of getting things together and going somewhere to have a composite depiction done. I might try that too.

    Blessings,

    Raven Knight Magick
    • Yikes, sorry for my delay, guys!

      >>>Have you seen "The Horned One" card of "The Witches Tarot" by Ellen Cannon Reed? This card replaces "The Devil" in most other cards.<<<

      Yes, I have!

      >>>This depiction is close to my experience.<<<

      An pic. was recently posted to a Tribe devoted to Pan that comes damn close to how I see Him, in many ways.

      >>>I don't recall Him having cloven feet. Seems like if He did, that would have stuck with me, but I can't say for sure. (But my attentions were elsewhere...ahem.)<<<

      I've come to change my mind concerning a Horned God idol with clove hooves, thse days...

      Alrthough, for an ALtar I'm working on, to devote to Him, I'm looking for a really rupped, and cut (as in muscles) idol of Pan, but can't find one. Can anyone help?

      >>>He wore a torque around his neck - something I find very sexy to this day, when I see depictions of them.<<<

      You saw him wearing a torc at the early age of 7? ;o)

      >>>He was also nicely hung and...viril.. Uncircumcised. The only one I've seen in person to this day. <<<

      You poor dear! I symphethize-- even here in Iowa I've had an uncut guy before. i was fascinated by his forskin, and played with it constantly! *drool*

      >>> I am always looking for depictions of Him, but haven't found the right one yet.<<<

      Ditto!

      >>>I like your idea of getting things together and going somewhere to have a composite depiction done. I might try that too.<<<

      Thanks! I just wish I knew who to turn to! Especially one that wouldn't mind discussing graphic sexuality!
  • Mac Morrighan,

    With all respect I am struggling a bit with your post. Please pardon me if you were writing with more of a sense of joking than perhaps I am reading into it
    Perceptions of a deity (by carnate humans) are of course subject to our own experiences/ psychology and you yourself said that this is how you “see” the Horned God. Particularly in your closing you seem to making light of the whole post but I have to be honest in sharing that I almost feel this post is on the side of irreverent and the mystery that this tribe is intended to celebrate and explore –it is one that I hold very deer.
    One of the things that I am getting from reading your post is that you seem to be engaging in pleasant fantasy of what you would like to experience when/if encountering this deity. You are concocting an image that in the end may prove to be a huge obstacle in truly connecting that force. To get caught in such literal constructs of what a deity is quite likely going to prove to be a stumbling block if you are met with something that may be quite far from what our imagined images hold and a part of you clings to that early image and retreats from what is really there.
    To me there is a distinct difference between a deity and an archetype. What you seem to be doing is drawing up the image you hold of a male archetype of virility and sexuality. There is part of me that would caution you against confusing that with an actual god- one that some consider to be perhaps one of the oldest held in human record. I feel that by over anthropomorphizing to the point of determining which pornstar’s body parts work for your likes and dislikes is over concretizing the abstract quality of a mystery and thereby losing it completely.
    I have to say I struggle with most every contemporary depiction of the horned god that I have seen. This is mostly due to the fact that I feel like the illustrative quality of most are far too literal.
    I can understand that the wildforce that he carries can be quite attractive.. the quality of the primal potency can yield awe and fear…
    I almost feel like your descriptions are somewhat trivializing an awe-some being, and I would encourage you to be clear between psycho-spiritual encounters and that of a true spiritual experience. To quote one of my teachers litmus tests: “how do you distinguish between a true spiritual experience and a pleasant fantasy- check your shorts.. if you shat yourself there’s a good chance it was a true spiritual experience, if not…”

    Don’t pick and choose
    Be in the mystery and wait for him to reveal himself in ways you many not expect or even want…

    -m
    • I really like a lot of what you said in your response to Mac Morrighan. I just would have liked you to have been a bit gentler when you seem to be stomping around with your 'irreverent' boots on another persons thoughts. Could you encourage more than chastise?
      Apologies, if I seem to have 'boots' on.
      I have only recently encountered the Horned Lord. Wow! I would really like to hear more, and more, of others experiences of Him.
      I rode behind him on His steed, was carried into the Earth by Him and was held/cradled in His arms as He spoke to me. I felt His strength and power and affection. I have trouble visualizing Him.
      I look forward to more encounters with Him.
      Blessings,
      Mike


      • Fair enough…
        …I do understand how the use of the word irreverent might be a bit harsh but I am also speaking honestly of a little cringe I felt inside while reading MacMorrigan’s post. I have actually thought a lot about this in the long time since I first read and responded to his note. I also realized that in my response I really didn’t offer anything, as you pointed out, and would like to try and step up and do so.
        So first off, I figure it’s a good idea to take a step back and look at what we are talking about here. First off we are all here sharing time on a tribe that’s dedicated to Deity/Spirit/ Archetype(s) that we have little “traditional” info. Kicking around on. We have myths (though not nearly as detailed and specific as many others out there), images from the sorcerer to the gundestrup (sp?) cauldron. But no (dogmatic) text that says “THIS IS WHO THE HORNED GOD IS AND WHAT HE IS ALL ABOUT… PERIOD!” Perhaps this mystery is what attracts so many of us to the Horned One. It allows us personal contact without rules dictating what the experience is going to be.
        So one of the first things I (and others) may consider is that really we might be talking about deities/energies/spirits that are not the same, that have nothing in common except something protruding from their foreheads. So perhaps what I have had experiences with, has nothing in common with what you, MacMorrigan or Jim are talking about.
        As consider, experiences I personally have trouble sometimes with the descriptions of meditations and similar exercises. I personally am challenged when someone goes into a meditation to connect with a divine entity and they connect with it and it affirms everything they already felt or thought about as they were going in to it. The line between pleasant fantasy and mystical experience is so hard to judge. There was something in MacMorrigan's post that felt of creating a mental construct and labeling a deity.
        So in trying to share: one of the earliest and most powerful encounters I have had that relates to the Horned One was in a sanctuary in Ohio, once mined and clear-cut, this site had dense woods, saturated with every poison plant possible. It had a clear sense of where it wanted us to go and where we needed to stay out of as the forest recovered. I have been to a number of sacred sites across the world and this was amongst the most magical places I have ever been. I was sort of warned by someone about my antler necklace “Herne walks these woods…” ‘You know what you are asking for?’ Was the subtext. I thought I did. Now I know I didn’t… and I still don’t. Later that night in a moment aside from the ritual firecircle I was lead in a meditation/attunement/prayer I had the most visceral feeling of something behind me that I had ever had to that point. The hair on my arms was tingling and I felt this massive presence behind me. I could not bring myself to turn. As I turned my senses there (not my eyes) what I felt was hugely powerful, shadow, and so far from human (which is one of the reasons I personally don’t click with many of the illustrative depictions and the literal descriptions.) I know that if I had turned and seen something like that it would be my conscious mind grasping at something I could understand or feel like I could relate to and I think in some ways that would have actually provided a barrier for any true connection.
        I spent some time taking in what I could I felt a pulsing in the energy behind me that was somewhat like breath, I tried to open to it and to breath along with it. I cannot describe what was going on internally at this point but I tried to hold on to it as long as I could and walked away not completely grounded.
        Not long after this point I experienced one of those moments where something happens that is does not work with how “reality” is supposed to*. As we left the fire that night I took it upon myself to take one of the disabled elders and carry her to her site. It was common to see two young bucks giving her a “kings chair” lift through the site. While she tried to assert that I should have help another man offered help I accepted saying “Ok.. I get her. You get her chair.” And off I went WALKING down the trails. After e short bit of carrying her she said that I should take a break that I was breathing hard. I felt not the slightest winded. I assured her I was fine. Not too long after that she said, “Really put me down and rest,” I responded “Why. We’re at your camp”. She was stunned and as I turned expecting the other man to be right behind me he was nowhere to be seen. I stood holding her waiting. Finally he came RUNNING down the path, winded saying “Whoa you move fast.”
        There was something in that that “shouldn’t have happened that lead me to realize that I hadn’t really fully stepped out of the experience earlier. It definitely shook me up and is a very visceral memory for me.

        So, apologies for having “Irreverent stompin’ boots” on. I realize there is no agreement in our tribe that everything we speak/write is supposed to be what would come at you if you were standing before the horned god himself (or themselves). I guess I am just trying to express that there is something in me that was uncomfortable with it. Just like a devout Christian, that no matter how good a sense of humor they have, might have a hard time with “Why did Jesus die on the cross???… He forgot his safe word,” I am kind of in a similar place here.
        Thanks for listening so to speak..
        martin
        • Your posts really started me thinking about how I view the God as a female and one with a past unsatisfactory relationship with a father. I like that you brought up the topic as often in the Craft the God tends to almost take a secondary role to the Goddess. I am trying to get more in touch with the God now and would like to hear your suggestions in how to do so. Thanks for sharing your views and bringing up the topic.
        • As far as my own description of Cernunnos, that was my experience, not a wish-fulfillment fantasy. I was only seven years old. Perhaps Cernunnos came to me in that form to help me not be afraid of men and masculinity due to the severe abuse I was going through. I won't go into it here, but it was not what you normally think of as molestation. It went far beyond that and left very deep physical and emotional wounds. Cernunnos, along with my other protectors, helped me, each in a different way. My own father sexually abused me (among others), so maybe I needed the fatherly presence Cernunnos provided. Even at the age of seven, I had feelings for other males, and He helped me to realize that this wasn't shameful.

          As a pagan, I see my deities as different than how Christians see their God. He's not some Ultra-Holy, untouchable, unknowable "thing." To me, deity is within me, you, MacMorrighan and everyone else. He/she has many faces and I've had a relationship with Cernunnos and Morrighan from a very young age. If they don't have a problem with my relationship with them, then who has the right to say that it's wrong? I didn't have a picture of Cernunnos at the age of seven, or Morrighan either. Both of them said I had served them in past lives, so we had a connection. They came to me as they chose to, not me. So, that was how I described him. If the description and my mentioning of sexual attraction to him disturbed you, I'm sorry. In my experience, however, many gay men have the same visceral attraction to him.

          I'm not a Christian and my views are as far from them as can be (even though I was also raised Jehovah's Witness). As a pagan, I see sex as holy and spiritual. The stories of the Gods of many cultures describe them as sexual beings, especially Cernunnos and other Horned Deities. We all have different comfort levels, but that doesn't mean that we're wrong, just different.

          Blessings,

          Raven Knight Magick
          • Right on... So Jim, let me first say that there is NOTHING about your expressing sexual attraction in your relationship witht the horned one that disturbed me. I know well the feelings some spritual entities have stirred up in me and I GET IT!! Not that I have had that in my relationshipship with the horned one but I have no judgement around that whatsoever.
            My innitial post was in reaction to what I felt like was Macmorrighan's description of concocting a vision of an entity instead of experiencing it. I just found it to be weird that he was describing what parts of who's body he'd like the horned one to appear with.
            When we get into that we are creating psychological construct and not experiencing divinity- that's what felt most off to me and of I look at my reaction many months later, yeah, the likening of parts of him to that of a pornstar did triger something in me and I guess I have some judgements there I could evaluate. Like why that feels base to me?

            -m
          • This is a wonderful discussion... so many wise and good things being said!
            My own experience with the God baffles me to this day. Although It was it was only my second experience with a God-form, it inspired me to pursue a pagan path.
            Mortal men and women can really only experience a small particle of the God without being killed, driven mad or in some other way transformed. Therefore we experience the aspect of the god we are (hopefully) ready for, and in a guise that will not cause us to drop dead from the sheer awe of the meeting. The Gods are very great, but to be able to draw from us what they need, they find it best to keep us alive for now. And so they take on whatever physical guise that will appeal, intimidate, guide or destroy us.
            My Kernunnos apeared dressed in garments composed of fog, stone, leaves and bone... not at all the way I picture him, which is quite naked with long, flowing hair, a lean, graceful deerlike body and flowing beard.
            But for the purposes of that ritual, (Which was not even a pagan one!) that was how he appeared.
            • Dean, thanks for responding!

              >>>Mortal men and women can really only experience a small particle of the God without being killed, driven mad or in some other way transformed.<<<

              Actually, the "insanity" and "transformation" you so eruditely discribe is the hallmark of an "authentic" Initiation *Experience*. ;o) Indeed, there are many shamnic figures in myth who started out "insane" only to transcend and claim a great power, such as Merlin, for instance. It may also be successfully argued that a NDE is an extension of the "shamanic crisis", because a physical "death" and subsequent "rebirth" are intimately acquainted.

              Though, getting back onto the topic of Horned Gods, and to comment upon your personal experience with Him, I have what I like to call "a passionate obsession for all things horny!" *G* Hey, I envisage a muscular, and ripped (though not TOO bulky and meaty!), with a huge Cock, and spiral tattoos of rebirth along His torso, with other varied shamanic accoutrements. ;o)

              Hey, I have a post dealing with how I view Him over at my CovenSpace Blog (which has changed from this, with an addition, and even a pic.!).

              Take Care,
              Wade MacMorrighan
        • >>>Perhaps this mystery is what attracts so many of us to the Horned One.<<<

          Perhaps for many, but for Witches, He is the Traditional Masculine Principle, by whatever the name of the Horned God. Personally, I seek to reclaim Him amongst such practitioners, as He seems to have been somewhat negated in facor of less "wild" or "ecstatic" deities, such as pairings betwene Apollo and DIana, for instance.

          >>>...I personally have trouble sometimes with the descriptions of meditations and similar exercises. I personally am challenged when someone goes into a meditation to connect with a divine entity and they connect with it and it affirms everything they already felt or thought about as they were going in to it. The line between pleasant fantasy and mystical experience is so hard to judge.<<<

          And, I ahree with this completely! However...

          >>>There was something in MacMorrigan's post that felt of creating a mental construct and labeling a deity.<<<

          What must be understood is that the Gods are given form by Man; the Gods are a primal Force that takes on no human characteristics until we give it to Them.

          Anyway, who's to say that this is now how the HGorned One has chosen to speak to me, through spaces between the heart-beat, and my own erotic fantasies when I Jack off? Personally, I am convinced (skeptic that I am) that He has to one extent or another, my friend.

          Of course, this is naturally to be expected in discussions about thealogy and theology that can really not be qualified-- and that's fine! At least try not to be so skeptical concerning one's perceptions. It may very well be hat the deity in question is speaking to them as such, despite your reservations.

          Be that as it may, my own "vision" of the Horned One may change-- and, indeed, it has! I expect that it will continue to do so for many years...

          >>>I was sort of warned by someone about my antler necklace “Herne walks these woods…” ‘You know what you are asking for?’ Was the subtext. I thought I did. Now I know I didn’t… and I still don’t.<<<

          Personally-- not that I'm poo-pooing your experience in any way, just admitting to what I might have thought had an individual said something similar to be, because I'm so skeptical-- I would have raised an eyebrow to them (at the very least) due to the notion of a British deity (which is questioned by British folklorists) roaming someone in the states of no real consequence. However, had they just deferred to "The Horned One"-- that I would have accepted!

          Now, about your antler necklace-- got any pix.? Where you get it from? Some of us adore Horned God-related jewelry! I have bought a fabulous ring: it's a black stone set in silver, with a silber pentagram set on top. On either side of the stone, on the band, is a goat whose horns curl around to encircle the stone.

          >>>Just like a devout Christian, that no matter how good a sense of humor they have, might have a hard time with “Why did Jesus die on the cross???… He forgot his safe word,”...<<<

          LOL... That *is* a funny joke! ;o)

          >>>...I am kind of in a similar place here.<<<

          Thank you for letting us know!

          As much as I deeply adore Him, and tend to defend His honour, I also have a sense of humour, and would like to see some of yours sometime! ;o) I'm sure He wouldn't mind, after all. He knows your not some infidel, right? Heh heh heh...

          Take Care,
          Wade
      • ....My dear mother on her death bed was seeing visions of Pan though she was a born-again-Christian whom fought against such imagery in her walk in life.She new my attachment as I gew up drawing and sculpting the horned one and various Goddesses etc.In one such vision she was in a woods and frightened and Pan came to her aid and then the Goddess Diana.She turned to me and said,"you knew...you knew."
        • how beautiful they came for her....i hope she was able to understand... what a gift! and to have you to help her through this vision... what a blessing .... Did your mother pass recently? Sounds like they came to comfort her and walk with her on her birthing to the afternlife. how awesome is that? !!!
    • I assure you that this post was very serious, although I tend to write on my Blog (from when it was originally posted and intended) with a sense of light-heartedness. That is something I also revere, and believe the Gods adore in us.

      >>>One of the things that I am getting from reading your post is that you seem to be engaging in pleasant fantasy of what you would like to experience when/if encountering this deity. You are concocting an image that in the end may prove to be a huge obstacle in truly connecting that force. To get caught in such literal constructs of what a deity is quite likely going to prove to be a stumbling block if you are met with something that may be quite far from what our imagined images hold and a part of you clings to that early image and retreats from what is really there.<<<

      Ah...but this is what every idol of a Deity is (concocted), my friend. And, my perceptions are no different than they through which they have manifested. I argue this what I have done is precisely what ancient scultpers have done-- they imposed upon their Gods their notion of human beauty (both male and female).

      >>>To me there is a distinct difference between a deity and an archetype. What you seem to be doing is drawing up the image you hold of a male archetype of virility and sexuality. There is part of me that would caution you against confusing that with an actual god- one that some consider to be perhaps one of the oldest held in human record. I feel that by over anthropomorphizing to the point of determining which pornstar’s body parts work for your likes and dislikes is over concretizing the abstract quality of a mystery and thereby losing it completely.<<<

      But, you must remember, despite the many God-Forms (to quote Janet & Stewart Farrar), then Horned One is, precisely, an Archetype. Doreen Valiente also seem to embody this in her Charge of the God. Because I worship no specific Horned God, I am free to fashion my own vision of this synchretic God.

      Remember, many chose not to envisage Deities in any way, despite their images, which we call "aniconicism". Allah and Meccah is the best known modern example, though Aphodite and Isis, as well as Kybeleywere also represented in this way.

      Another aspect of this polemic you should take into account, I believe, is that the Horned God is an expression of sexuality; and to represent Him otherwise would be rather offensive to Him, I am sure.

      >>>I almost feel like your descriptions are somewhat trivializing an awe-some being...<<<

      Not in the least-- they are attempting to bring Him greater glory in a worl that finds offense with male beauty and sexuality, rather making Him potent, but at the loss of what leads to arrousal (the erotic factor). ;o)

      Take care,
      Wade MacMorrighan
      Wade@MacMorrighan.Net
  • Unsu...
     
    I recently had an image of the horned god tatooed on my upper abdomen. The tatooist suggested adding the tree leaves to the god's antlers to emphasize his connection to the Forest and I agreed. Now my only problem is explaining the image to the uninformed who, invariably identify it as Satan. But I've come to realize that it's an opportunity to educate. I posted a pic of the new ink on my profile for those interested in seeing it.
    • Greetings all,
      Great thread
      I have had 2 encounters with a visual version of the Horned one.
      My first was in a wiccan initiation after fasting for 4 days and deep ceremony I was put in a sensory deprivation situation ( bound and blindfolded) while the coven members did ceremony. I witnessed a horned figure with a chalice morphing from deer to horned one. The being was very similar to my alter image of cernunnos (wich i will post once i scan it)
      The meeting was quite profound with much deep information revealed.

      The second was on a small island on the west coast I vision quested for 30 days and had a sacred ceremony and circle on the autmn equinox That night I had an experience where this bieng appeared (i felt the panic or awe of this massive energy) it was the man of the woods. defenatly masculin and its huge body was an amalgumation of animals, owl, wolf,deer, birds raccoon ect.. with large horns, It was like a 13-17' man made of live animal pieces.
      It was pretty intense and dropped me to my knees in prayer and reverance for nature.

      I defenatly feel these energies are beyond our desciption and limited perception and therefore adapt themselves to our descriptions(and sometimes more).

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